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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 10, 2008 7:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell

I hear you; I just really like their youthful sound...Phil lost more, I suppose, but even Bob I thought moved more toward that style of his that he uses still today as early as 73 (lamely described by me, others as "talking his way" thru a song rather than straight up singing). I dunno...I'll eventually get bored with my limits, right? I'll have to move up and think of the reserves there waiting for me! Hundreds of shows to discover, and even a few friends here to ask about them all...

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Poster: He Live's Date: Dec 10, 2008 7:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell

you are crazy man! if you listen to a lot of other music i could see how you don't need anymore out of the dead than certain years you like...

i listen to plenty of other music but, i still listen to at least 3-6 hours of GD a week.... and even at that rate -- there is no way i could JUST listen to 72-77. at some point there IS boredom.....


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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 11, 2008 11:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

I was just thinking of you ( and Cliff ) on this exact subject today. Driving to work listening to the B.E. Women from 2-15-73 and I couldn't help but thinking that you guys pretty much voluntarily pass on the entire Grateful Dead songbook of GREAT songs. I can understand having your preference but I always find it weird that you never get bored of the same setlists and you guys have no use for 90% of their songs and versatality as a band.

Hey but no need to apologize for liking what you like. At least you're not claiming that 84-86 or 94-95 were the bands peak.

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Poster: Bob Gnarley Date: Dec 11, 2008 11:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

I'll admit that I pass on a lot of the catalog, voluntarily.
I just don't care for most of the post-retirement "new" material.Althea and Standing On The Moon are notable exceptions.I never cared for Foolish Heart, and there isn't one Brent tune that doesn't make me cringe.But that's just me.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 11, 2008 11:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

So, answering my own question, in a random, singular way, here is a set list from 82 (I think, I just grabbed it from the "TJI" listing above):

"Set 1

Bertha ->
Greatest Story Ever Told
Friend Of The Devil
Me And My Uncle ->
Big River
Bird Song ->
C C Rider
Althea
Looks Like Rain
Might As Well

Set 2

Playing In The Band ->
Uncle John's Band ->
Drums ->
Space ->
The Wheel ->
Playing In The Band ->
Black Peter ->
Sugar Magnolia

Encore
Don't Ease Me In"

I did NOT bias this in any way, I literally just grabbed the first post 80 show and used it to compare, and there you go: I actually "get" virtually ALL these songs in "my" early era...

Interesting. I know there have to be exceptions, but other than covers, I don't think it is actually the case that I am "missing out" on even 50% of their material, and I don't think that even if I only let you guys vote (ie, only folks that like the 70s and 80s), that the number of what you would pick as "best" would leave me out in the cold...

I knew I was doing something right.

Now, suppose you could argue that they did them "better" in 77 or 81, but that is a horse of a different color. And you have Donna to contend with.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 11, 2008 11:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

That's fine. I don't like a lot of those tunes either including SOTM.

Here are my exceptions - Blues for Allah, all of that album I like

Estimated, Terrapin
Feel Like a Stranger, Althea
Hell in a Bucket, West LA Fadeaway, Esau
Victim or the Crime ( yeah that's RIGHT ).

BUt your missing my point. These guys don't like anything past 1970 and considering they mainly like 68 and 69 I would say that they mainly like 70 for the Dark Stars/Other Ones etc. So now your talking NONE of the 71 tunes - Bertha, Loser, Playin, NONE of the 72 tunes - BE Women, Ramble On Rose, heck just add them up. The Grateful Dead songwriting canon pretty much began in 70. I'm talking the craft of songwriting not just experimentation and improv. I mean come on, no offense to Hunter but the lyrics to Alligator are pretty damn dumb when you compare them to his later work.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 11, 2008 11:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

Ha--that is funny since I thought of THAT song when responding thinking to myself "I do like it" (but, I do have a couple from 71, I think; one is on DP35, and Harding, etc...and at least a few of the mainstays from 72-73 show up in the fall/winter of 71). Ones like Bertha, MrCh, GSET, PitB, Deal, Sugare, etc.

But, now that you mention it, in terms of songs they wrote, rather than the covers (which they did do a lot of in the last 24 yrs), I think that my % might be higher than your estimate ("entire" or "90%"). I am thinking that most of their really great songs are covered in the period of 67-73, in terms of writing--ie, I do like the ones on Eur72 & WotFlood. I think most of us would agree that those are the peak yrs for Hunter/Garcia (Bob and Barlowe peaked in 72-73? Later? I don't know enough to say, but I don't count many of theirs in the same category).

So, if we just take the songs from LDead, Work, AmBeau, S&R, Garcia solo, then actually I do GET the majority of their great tunes. And, if you will, except for the transition that occurs with Wake and BluesAllah, I do get the "styles" from psyc rock, country, folk, etc., since many of the tunes from, say, Eur72, are similar to the style of those on Work/AmBeau.

You are right that I still miss those written after 72 or so (the ones that they didn't do in the fall of 71 live), but other than the classics like Scar-Fire, or Frank-Sknot, I don't think it actually adds up to as many great ones as I do have in my period.

So, just out of idle curiosity, what would be your top of the head listing of the 10 greatest songs post 72 that I therefore miss?

This post was modified by William Tell on 2008-12-11 19:43:14

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Dec 11, 2008 12:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

I hope you at least have one '73 They Love Each Other to listen to on occasion.

And you've got to admit that the '73 Wave that Flag is just downright FUN!!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 11, 2008 12:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

You know, J, since it is hidden down here I can probably admit it with being thrown off the board, but you might recall (you and I talked about it some at the time) that I really made an effort to transition into 73 with the arrival of the Nov boxed set, spent the money, listened, and even posted some positive (initial) comments about here...but, the truth is, I haven't had it on since that first week, for more than a few minutes. I have tried a couple of times, even taking it in the car with no other options, etc., and it just hasn't worked. Pathetic, I know, but though I can appreciate the jazzy, sophisticated playing (Jerry and Phil esp; Bob's voice actually starts to bother me during this time), etc., it just doesn't do anything for me...haven't really talked with folks here about it, but have had arguments with my friends from a band/HS days that love 72-73, and really pissed them off that I just can't get out of my rut...

Hey, but help me out! You know I talk about Work/AmBe, thru 71, right? Do I have to put out a flyer to set the record straight?

Why am I even talking about this? Oh right, I am pretending to work right now...

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 11, 2008 12:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

that's ok Tell. You dont need to apologize for liking what you like. Hell, some people around here think the mide 80's were the bands best. I think they're way wriong but who am I to say that about what THEY like right?

I do however think that winterland 73 is a masterful run. I also think their Europe 72 tour was their best most perfect bar none.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 11, 2008 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

the 73 "overly upfront" vocals can tend to be a bit of a drag, but i'm with ya on your list of 10 tunes that cannot be done without (barring Hell ina Bucket)

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Dec 11, 2008 1:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

OK so you need the Dolby (W)eir button on your stereo to give '73 a good listen. Well thats OK. Perhaps it is all the wax in my ears that lessens the blow of Bob vocals.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 11, 2008 2:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

Hey--you were supposed to support me on the Mr Ch rec's...damn, was that Elb and not you?

I gotta take some time for proper witness preparation and disclosure...my case is getting weak what with Rob using my own testimony against me!

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 11, 2008 11:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

yeah but you never really speak too much about 71-73 Tell except times like this. I RARELY hear you talk past 70 and then it's always about the intrumental stuff. So ok I'll agree with you if you're going to extend your preferred era through 73. Personally I'd extend it through 74.

Top 10 post 73 songs? IMO but not nescessarily in this order

1) Althea
2) Scarlet
3) China Doll
4) Help/Slip/Frank
5) Fire on the MT
6) Crazy Fingers
7) Hell in a Bucket ( I think it's a great song but I'm not one opposed to humor in music )
8) Estimated Prophet
9) Victim ( I dont give a shit what anyone says one of their most daring songs since the early days )
10) Terrapin

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 11, 2008 12:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

JOTS--you missed it; I do NOT go past 71. All the songs above are from that year.

And, if you have missed my lengthy discussions on MrCh and Bertha, and my recommendations on RTs, summer 71, and 8-6-71 (I have actually typed that more than 12-29-68) then I understand that you think I am only going to 71 for instrumentals, but actually, the opposite is true (I go there for Bertha, GSET, etc.).

Plus, I know you know I have recommended the gospel tunes dozens of times from my fav gospel tune shows: 6-7-70 and 9-20-70 and those shows are big on those Work/Ambe numbers.

So, I think we just have a case of miscommunication on my part: ie, that the "Mr 68" label has you thinking that I really only do that yr.

I really do think that 68-71 covers most of the good stuff.

I understand your listing above, but ask yourself this: would you trade your list above for the ones I "get" in my era? Unless you argue that you "get" them all, which I doubt you would, right? An 80s Bertha (?) or UNJB just doesn't measure up to a 70-71, right?

Good getting it straight!

Thx

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 11, 2008 1:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

but you're missing Seastones....

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Dec 11, 2008 1:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

and insect fear

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=147745

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 11, 2008 4:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

The last person I expected in this gang up was you, Coach K. Jumping in for an Ainge Style (or was it Rollins Esque?) ankle bite while JOTS was holding me down?

OK, maybe you were trying to help. And since you brought home the Gold this past summer, I am going to forgive you this one time.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 11, 2008 4:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

Hey, I saw Tree play in person back during his Clemson days.
Littlejohn is a hell of an arena.

Just giving you the shit you deserve - beware of my 2009 expose on a song ala our more esteemed contributors. I can't decide on samba in the rain versus liberty....

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 11, 2008 1:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forum Members v. William Tell AND Cliff

Tell, you said you like WOTF but you dont go past 71 so you're missing Row Jimmy, GREAT tune imo

China Doll -
the China>Riders started getting good in 71 but are much better 72-74

I've beat this Dead Horse. I personally can find good in most eras. Even during their worst years they were usually better than the average other band imo.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 11, 2008 2:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

Cast your mind back to February:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=180356

JOTS has you. Scarlet was first performed March 23 1974 - you can't claim it for 71. Well, Tell?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 11, 2008 2:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

Ha! Hoisted on my own...well, okay, I plead "The Rob Transformational Factor" (ie, I must have become MORE hardened as I aged!

Does that cut any ice with the Judge? Can I just get probation or some such?

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 11, 2008 3:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

Hey you can have a suspended sentence of buy me a beer one day - how's that?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 11, 2008 3:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

Hey--that's a DATE! Guinness or Harp or somesuch, but no "pissy water" as the pubowners on the Emerald Isle would term it (ie, modern beer, Stella, etc.; or at least that's what they told us). Or, even an upper crust (?) Jameson would suffice (we tried a number while visiting London and SW Ireland the past few yrs; mmmm....I know they may not be up to your standards, but we potato eaters have to be happy with what we have...at least the Protestants didn't make it...well, we hope so).

Good to know I can bribe my way out of this.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 11, 2008 2:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

But there's no way you can get either him or JOTS to listen to this; however, you might like:

http://www.archive.org/details/ryanadams2007-07-12.sbd.flac16

RT starts 3 solo nights (1st 2 all request) right up the road tonight....

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 11, 2008 3:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

I shall give Ryan a listen with great pleasure when the morning comes. The RT request shows sound wonderful, are you going? His easy-going stage persona and rapport with the audience always seems to stand in strange contrast to the cynical miserablism (yeah I know there's no such word) of a lot of his material. It's the contradiction that makes him so appealing I find.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 11, 2008 3:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

I'm trying to go tomorrow. I love me some Richard - and agree that he is the most engaging misanthrope on stage.

I'm hopeful he'll be back in 2009 with RT Band.

Interesting tidbit I recently learned about him - Los Lobos was his wedding band when he married the gal that runs McCabes down in Santa Monica. He makes his home in SoCal but obviously returns to the UK frequently and keeps his place(s?) there. If you ever get the chance, read his Qs and As on his site - pretty damn funny stuff.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 11, 2008 3:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

ok - I admit you got me. I'm sitting here listening to Ryan instead of hitting the sack. Great songs and stunningly professional delivery - you just can't beat it. When RA is on he's just heartstoppingly good. Returning the favour, I love this one from a couple of weeks earlier:

http://www.archive.org/details/radams2007-06-29.sbd.flac

but you probably know it already - hell it might even have been you who put me on to it!

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 11, 2008 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Just a moment, Master Tell

Yea, but I think it was High Flow (?) that turned me on to the upgrade of this show.

BTW, check out the Relix online article - great pic of Ryan and Phil together. Interesting take by Ryan on his time with Phil and Friends - he's very apologetic about it.

http://www.relix.com/blogcategory/Relix_Cover_Story.html [you can do free digital subscription]

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